XtremeSpeakFreely

I agree completely and we have to be correct because everyone else only has an internet opinion.
Internet opinion shield activated...

Wonder how equitable it would feel to be $350+K underwater in your house and get foreclosed on or short sale where the banks loss is seen as your gain (income). Think this might be the case for a few people nowadays? Think you'll get any help?

Inequitable is inequitable. You can rationalize it a million ways, but it doesnt change this fact.

Is it necessary for the govt to survive? You're kidding right? Wheres it all going? Does it actually produce a result? You think the poor are better off? Are there fewer of them now? Will there be fewer as a result of the tax increase, or will there be more? Do you think there isnt a consequence to it? Do you think it might hurt someone else beside the guy who gets the freebee and the guy who paid for it?

Could it all just be a big ruse for political purpose? Is it a means of control? Enable and fuel influence peddling and corruption? Does it encourage an open and cohesive, interconnected society or does it divide and segregate us? What other injustices can one justify using these same means and methods? Inflationary monetary policy? Deficit spending? <cough> contractual credit card interest rate? Does it discourage behavior or actions that would better society?

This isnt to say that there shouldnt be a taxes, but how its used and justified is patently absurd. In the end, all it will do is enable a continuation of decline in status quo and will only enrich the unscrupulous and manipulation of our government (not to mention swelling the ranks of them by rewarding this veiled behavior) at our own expense by our own hands because we fail to simply address these issues and accept responsibility for our myopic, biased and ill-justified actions and policy. In the end its going to be your own $ or likely would have been.

These are just a few holes in the logic going the other way, and you have a LOT of history that you're going to have to explain and overcome before you can make any progress towards any rational case of justification. The inconvenient truth is easy to overlook, ignore or justify when its someone else. But try selling work in the free lunch line.

Ask not whom will pay for this tax cause youre going to be VERY disappointed.

-SS

I was trying to make peace with you Tom and respect your opinion. obviously that doesn't work with some users at xsf. this forum is so predictable.. you're hell bent on your angry need to defy any opinion not agreeing with your own... it's sad really to see...

so much for trying to be your friend, you obviously don't have that in you. like you said in your quote above, I guess this is the last we'll have words with each other since you can't seem to behave in a civilized manner.

Give him hell, blow off some steam, say your piece... it's not the end of the world.

nice... you love to feed on conflict.... modus operandi behavior most trolls exhibit... congrats on your achievement, dengy... it's not like you exhibit a pattern or anything...

Electronics are cheaper in the US. Cars are cheaper in the US. Gas is 50% cheaper in the US. I dunno about food for sure, but I'm guessing that a metric ton of food in the US is cheaper than one in Romania.
A 2 bedroom apartment here is about 130,000$. A house with a yard big enough to fit a car(no, no garage) is about 200,000.

It's completely inpractical to try and live by yourself with a 500 euro/month income. 250 euros is just the rent on a small studio apartment. Then you have all the bills, which add up to at LEAST 100 euro and if you don't go out to eat and buy only the cheapest stuff from supermarkets, you can eat for a month with about 100 euros. But that's stretching it.

Do people have vegetable gardens or go fishing there ?

Polizei and mike12 did a good a good job giving the rationale for their respective positions. I'm with the former when it comes to tax brackets. When people ask me why I always say that we as citizens are just contracting with the government to ensure rights which may be God-given, but which aren't free. But when you go to pay for these right at the government store they charge you based on what you earn not what you are buying. If a regular store charged you a different price for their producta they would be in court very quickly. I understand mike12's saying things currently are such that if we were to move to a flat tax there would be much suffering from the poorest and middle class, Sure, if we continue to spend at the current rates, but that has to change. We should always be trying to move towards more fairness in society instead of trying to perpetuate unfairness. Fairness isn't always practical and doesn't always serve the majority.

I would like to see a "flattened" tax that doesn't allow for any deductions whether rich, poor or somewhere in the middle. I don't see the point in taxing income below the poverty line but I would like to see it flatten out quickly after that. Deductions are just another version of tax payers stealing from other tax payers.

BTW - Shootstraight - nice post.

Do you think that the majority of career welfare/food stamp recipients need to be booted off the system so that they will be forced to rejoin the work force ?
No one should get a free ride off of the public. That should be worked out with their family or church (if they're a member).

I agree that our tax code is messed up with all those credits and deductions.

yeah, but I still don't believe a flat tax is fair.. where are some of your logics... someone who makes $15k a yr, should be taxed flat taxed 30% and take home $10k , while someone who makes $100 million/yr is taxed 30%and takes home $700 million.

Where is it fair to make that guy pay 30% @15k that works 40hrs+ a week, how is he supposed to feed his family in america, when he brings home $10k/yr ($833/mo)...he would starve. in theory it's all good from your internet theory opinion standpoint (especially when your still on dad's tit). but put it into real life. it would be nice as Tom says (even after he's admitted he pays next to no taxes with his low income and college exemptions) "then cut out the government. Cut out programs. Cut out foreign aid. Cut out the bulk. If we have to cut out spending, then bring the troops home. Impose more strict limits on Medicaid/Medicare".

but that's not reality. I'm sorry, but no matter how you fantasize it should be, reality of life bites. We'd all love to live in that fantasy world where everyone is equal, but it's just not gonna happen. wake up already.. Work with what you have and make it work. That has always been the american dream. The american dream has always been based on hard work and reality, not fantasy. Let's stop pretending we can bitch enough to make it happen. It is what it is... either put up, or shut up.

Very well said, Mike.

The very notion that a flat tax would represent some semblance of economic equality is laughable. It's a fact that a flat tax would disproportionally burden the poor and middle class and work out incredibly well for the wealthy. Low and middle income families typically making $24,000-53,000/year for a family of four--paying a mortgage, health insurance including prescription bills and co-pays, car, insurance, energy, and still have money left over to put food on the table, do not have the same kind of spending potential as a family making $250,000/year which is about 7 times their income. And as well all know, the propensity to spend decreases with increased wealth yielding no advantage to the economy and just results hording capital. Taxing a family making $50,000/year at 30% leaves them with 35,000 to cover all expenses (including trying to build up a savings account) is not going to leave anything leftover for them to spend and stimulate the economy. Stripping the lower and middle class of their capital and transferring it to a group who uses their capital on trading houses, country clubs, and expensive bottles of wine is not good economic sense. Seriously, after blowing through $5,000,000 what else is there to do with your $73 million in the bank? Besides, the top tax bracket tends to pay less on average than what the marginal tax rate is due to the use of those nifty offshore accounts in the Caribbeans. It makes more sense to take some of that dead capital and put it in the hands of the masses in order to increase economic growth and raise living standards for 95% of the country.

Furthermore, in our current political world, money has a stranglehold on policy. So those who control greater amounts of wealth are able to participate more directly in shaping government policy, often in ways that further maximize their wealth. That completely flies in the face of the kind of one person, one vote democracy that our founding fathers aspired. Besides, to those like Polizei and gundamit who constantly like to point out how little the wealthy rely on the government--consider this: the wealthy have more to lose, thus greater interest in maintaining govt services paid for by taxation such as security of property rights, defense and infrastructure, as they have much more to lose if these fail than do the poor. Public investments in defense and foreign aid are often much riskier than investing in domestic services like infrastructure, education, transportation or health care. (which actually ends up increasing our living standards)

And to those who think that hiking the tax rate on the rich is going to make them somehow want to earn less are living in a fantasy. Producers are encouraged to make as much profit as possible regardless of the tax rate. As long as after tax income is a strictly increasing function of gross income (no surprises), there is a monetary incentive to increase compensation received because for any particular income goal, the higher the tax rate, the more compensation one must receive to reach that income goal. Therefore people will still want to earn as much as they possible humanly could. In fact, this might this actually incentivize people to produce and earn more--stimulating the economy in the process.

What's even more obvious is the positive effect a progressive tax code has on reducing income inequality. Currently, the gap between the rich and the poor has reached levels not seen since the 1920's. This is a recipe for disaster. Studies show that increase in income inequality leads to an increase in homicride rates and middle class people on good incomes are likely to be less healthy, less likely to be involved in community life, more likely to be obese, and more likely to be victims of violence. Simply put, a flat tax would reduce quality of life and make this country a worst place to live.

1. http://psych.mcmaster.ca/dalywilson/iiahr2001.pdf
2.http://www.thpc.scot.nhs.uk/Presentatio ... kinson.pdf

So please, drop the whole idea of a flat tax already. This isn't the 18-19th century anymore. Welcome to the real world. A flat tax would be disastrous for an economy that is dependent on consumer spending and will only further prolong downturns. A progressive tax code provides financial cushion for the middle class in downturns--if a person were to see a decrease in wages due to a recession, then the money regained by being in a lower tax bracket lessens the hit. Like Mike said, it's time to wake up and dissolve whatever flat-tax utopia you have dreamed up over the years.

I'd just like for the huge number of hood rats to stop being a drain and start contributing.

Do you have anything intelligent to add? Just wondering..

no doubt ! the welfare rats are totally unacceptable in US society.. but I think some of yall extend that theory more than warranted.
many of you disregard all but your selfish needs and opinions. I dunno, I'm done with this endless discussion of youth and inexperience. ----------- yeah, because you feel you are an equal, you should be... you have no fking idea what some have gone through to make your life in this country possible. one day you might... but as of now, most of the crap I hear at SF is a bunch of whiny HS children.

Yep, just said it, and don't forget I'm twice your age and live in the real world.
Your swallowing all the political BS you've been fed so far doesn't make you intelligent, I'd say it's quite the opposite.

What does your age have to do with the progressive tax code?


Do you have anything specific to say here or just trolling?

What does the progressive tax code have to do with my intelligence ?

Why is it that every time you get checked for saying something stupid, you cry troll ?

Why do you always answer with a question ?

Them whiskers look nasty.

Sorry, I assumed you meant intelligence. I didn't think you just threw it in.





Checked? I didn't get checked. You came into the thread and called me an idiot, that's not checking.

No, you implied that I have nothing intelligent to contribute when the reality is that I just don't pick through the details.

It was a rather straightforward question.

Oh, this explains a lot. I should sig this as a reminder.

Yep... just the summary, glad to be of entertainment.

I'm not sure people here see it as much entertainment.